Scanned, recopied or Internet copy, if there are errors, please e-mail me with corrections:
Opening comments: More at the end.
To the main Judicial Inquiry page - to the Hazel McCallion page.
Comments by others to this web-page 35.
Toronto Sun - Aug. 6, 2010 - By Ted Woloshyn - ted.woloshyn@sunmedia.ca -
Inquiry bill will sting Mississauga
Thank goodness odds on the cost for the Mississauga judicial inquiry were not offered on Ontario’s Pro-Line, or the OLG would have been forced to file for bankruptcy.At the outset the inquiry was projected to cost $2 million to $2.5 million.
Nobody bought that number. Most would have taken the over.
That taxpayer-funded figure is now $5 million — and it ain’t over yet.
Understandably, many are wondering why. Actually they are seriously ticked it’s hit that mark.
So how did this happen?
Did they not consider summoning people forward to testify, legal costs, and all the paper work and preparation that goes with it would be so expensive? Again, nobody bought the original number but those who insisted the inquiry take place either didn’t believe those who offered caution, or just didn’t give a damn.
And remember, this inquiry is not a trial. No one has been charged with breaking any law, no one will be convicted, and no one will be sentenced to serve time.
But if you request or demand someone defend themselves regarding allegations or suppositions then you are responsible for their legal costs, otherwise it’s a wide open shooting gallery.
Yee-haw!
Welcome to basic democratic rights and freedom.
Earlier this week Mayor Hazel McCallion, who has already incurred $150,000 in legal fees, asked council to extend coverage of her legal fees to $400,000.
Much to the surprise of many, they unanimously agreed — led by McCallion’s nemesis Coun. Carolyn Parrish, albeit reluctantly. It turned out they had no choice.
You get the feeling Parrish is beginning to realize this vendetta is losing steam, big time, and maybe it’s time to alter her posture. Maybe it’s time to appear somewhat conciliatory.
But Parrish is not one to sit back in silence.
When the inquiry was first launched, Coun. Katie Mahoney suggested a monthly report on costs be released. It passed unanimously. It was then requested the results be more detailed, and that, of course, became more costly.
An independent company was engaged to sift through city documents and transfer them to electronic files for the sake of expedience.
Parrish now plans to re-visit that decision. But why now?
The inquiry continues on Monday, but council doesn’t return until September, and by then the majority of the inquiry will have been completed. So is she hoping they can somehow keep the final costs down to a murmur?
How this inquiry will end, and what the findings and recommendations are remain to be seen, but here’s what we know:
At a cost of some $6 or $7 million, if at the end of this repugnant voyage nothing concrete is resolved the city of Mississauga’s reputation will have been tarnished by those seeking political gain.
They will be seen as opportunistic individuals willing to tarnish the character of a mayor who has served her constituents for more than 30 years, when all that was needed was an integrity commissioner and councillors willing to make changes that would ensure transparency, and good governance.
As the mayor’s legal counsel, Elizabeth McIntyre, so rightfully stated, “It is very expensive to do these inquiries and the city council should have done so with their eyes open.”
It’s a little late for members to come to the realization this is not council’s inquiry; it’s just their bill.
And that price tag comes complete with a picture of the seven who deemed it necessary.
Comments by others, 35, to this web-page;
Laurie@city Report Comment
August 10th 2010, 11:12pm
@spiderveins,
It shows that if you do not share the same opinion or even make a comment , some pps revert to nasty expletives, why?
xoxoxo
:)
MISSISSAUGAWATCH Report Comment
August 10th 2010, 7:28pm
@spiderveins
You wrote: "Tell me Ms Watch have you never made a mistake, a judgement error, protected a family situation.. how about a parking ticket etc.Perfect,HUH?"
Nope. DO make mistakes. You'll see them on the Internet! And that's the point! I don't delete my mistakes and fake like they never happen. I admit to them and then offer up a correction. MYTHissauga lies, denies. (tons of video evidence)
You wrote:
"If you are so anti everything in Mississauga, why punish yourself ?? Move." I am ANTI-LIES-CORRUPTION @$$*** and a citizen's duty is to STAY - bear witness!
You asked, "Are you the person in the ball cap glued to a camera and running for mayor?" Not running for mayor. Researching what it's like to deal with @$$***s like you
The Ram Report Comment
August 10th 2010, 5:27pm
Circus-Trained Teddys and Monkeys do enjoy their Occasional Banana, eh Anna?
No one's Discounting Madam Mayor's "Contributions". I, for one, was her Biggest Fan. . 4Ever. . Blindly Voting. . . in a Haze. . .
She did an Excellent Job. . N got Paid Handsomely. . . in Money, Undying Gratitude, UnFlinching Loyalty.
If U Actually "Look" at "Drivel Facts", you will appreciate that:
a) No one would Dare Forge Head-to-Head, against someone so Famous / Powerful / Popular, unless there was Strong Evidence
b) Hazel WOULDN'T have NEEDED to TRY and CONTAIN the Inquiry to Narrow Boundaries, if she was an Innocent Dupe. . . BTW - this is "The Hazel" V R talking about?
c) The Largesse, to Jr. N Firm, was in the MILLION$$
Just the TIP of the 'Berg!
spiderveins Report Comment
August 10th 2010, 4:34pm
Ted ...
I am not a great supporter of Madam Hazel but I respect her acumen. Just back from Lake M and read your column online, then went on to the DRIVEL FACTS. Is this a forum for Mississauga Watch? Sounds & smells like a plant and looks like a spy recording. Tell me Ms Watch have you never made a mistake, a judgement error, protected a family situation.. how about a parking ticket etc.Perfect,HUH?
If you are so anti everything in Mississauga, why punish yourself ?? Move. There is a word called POSITIVE and there are many positives in this community. Are you the person in the ball cap glued to a camera and running for mayor? And lastly since I just moved to Ward 6, I would rather vote for you than C Parish. but Hazel for mayor.
Anna
Mississauga Watch Report Comment
August 9th 2010, 5:16pm
frank-n-city and Ianny
Royson James "Step one: End the denials."
"To the army of Hazel McCallion apologists — many itching to re-elect her Oct. 25 — testimony out of the Mississauga judicial inquiry must be painful. At best, Peter McCallion used his mom, the good graces of her Streetsville home and the tax-supported res...ources of the mayor’s office to feather his own nest." "At worst, he was aided and abetted by the powerful mayor mom who seems to have her hand in every deal, a finger in every transaction, and bared knuckles at the ready to drive hesitant developers to the altar." "Whatever you believe, the public process is badly broken in Mississauga..." Such behaviour is clearly forbidden in most municipalities. We hope."
lanny Report Comment
August 9th 2010, 1:54pm
Who is "mississaugawatch" ??.. sounds like someone with a real axe to grind or was dropped as a youngster..
All i know is that this inquiry is costing us txpayers a lot of money for a witch-hunt and the focus of attention should be reversed to councilor Parish and her cohorts .. check their closets... seems to me that i read that Ms Parish uses her daughter as a photograher and pays her with community donated money..
T or F ?
pressured busunesses to pay for canada day T or F ?
son in law is a city employee T or F
Frank and Corey below got my vote
frank-n-city Report Comment
August 9th 2010, 1:37pm
Corey L
you got it , Pontiac, there are deals made between 7 of the councillores.. no coughin about it !Nando I (had2make a deal ) has no udder worldly job skills. Frankie D ( don't send me back to my Region old clerks job) Carmen ( what would Harold do ) George C ( if you can't say something nice , don't say nothing )got me a job in covert ops with D,. Susan M ( nothong ) she usedto have a mind of her own.. Eva ( mess wit me, no signs ) and of course the one who needs no lessons in brawling, hidden agendas and uses whoever for a vote. guess who ? 2nd clue to ward 6 this money is a necessary evil/ time out to rip up woloscyns column,.3rd clue,, you guessed it. spennd spennd and more spennd of taxpayers
$$ONLY $6 Mil so far
Flr12FMradio
Corey L Report Comment
August 8th 2010, 5:48pm
Quick, reach for an epipen as the bill will be more than a little sting.
Oh and after this inquiry, lets spend more money to inquire who wanted the inquiry and why.
Let's check into backroom deals ( cough, cough) that might have been made to get this inquiry through ( they don't happen, do they?) cough, cough..
Was I born yesterday, the day before, or the day before that?
I better to take someting for this cough of mine!
glenn miller Report Comment
August 8th 2010, 12:14pm
"inquiry bill will sting Mississauga", Well1 as the poliyicians say "It's only money", and also "somebody is got to get rid of this filthy stuff."
MISSISSAUGAWATCH Report Comment
August 7th 2010, 9:09pm
Hey there George from Brampton
You wrote:
"CONGRATS ON RUNNING, I applaud people who stick up for what they believe and in this case you are one of them. We will see in November what the public think of you as a candidate."
I'm so confident of a loss that I've booked vacation two days after election! :-)
You wrote:
"Personally I dont think the majority of people in Mississauga see thing the way you do, and are quite content with Hazel. In most peoples opinion she has done her job very well, and we all know that a few things slip under the table and no one gets excited."
Agree completely. Mississauga voters care only about their wallets. Hazel's son makin' millions on a secret land deal --and Hazel helping. Ain't no big thing.
George from Brampton Report Comment
August 7th 2010, 8:42pm
Mississaugawatch
CONGRATS ON RUNNING, I applaud people who stick up for what they believe and in this case you are one of them. We will see in November what the public think of you as a candidate.
Personally I dont think the majority of people in Mississauga see thing the way you do, and are quite content with Hazel. In most peoples opinion she has done her job very well, and we all know that a few things slip under the table and no one gets excited. Lots of luck, and thats about all I can offer you. From reading other posts you seem to have some who dont agree with you, whether they are friends of Hazel or not. Personally between you and Parrish should make for an exciting council. Dont think even Mississauga can handle both of you.
MISSISSAUGAWATCH Report Comment
August 7th 2010, 6:16pm
@ Geirge from Bramton
You wrote:
"In reality what you are stating when you run against Hazel is that about 95% of the people agree with her and you are one of the 5% who dont. Pretty hard to beat them odds. If you feel that Mississauga has been wronged, then run for the mayors chair....Good luck, take your chance, put your money where your mouth is, and walk the walk instead of just talk the talk."
I signed up to run for Mayor against Hazel McCallion on January 4th and was the FIRST person to file!
Here is video of me filing --and the reasons why.
""The Mississauga Muse" (MISSISSAUGAWATCH) ru... --hobbles for MAYOR. " at:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyo5ff1a5qA
Watch and you'll see the Hazel McCallion the public doesn't...
Watch.
Geirge from Bramton Report Comment
August 7th 2010, 4:51pm
Mississauga Watch
In reality what you are stating when you run against Hazel is that about 95% of the people agree with her and you are one of the 5% who dont. Pretty hard to beat them odds. If you feel that Mississauga has been wronged, then run for the mayors chair. Tell all who will listen at rallies etc., what the problems were with the inquiry. If you get enough people on board you will win. Somehow, I dont think this is a real big issue with most folks in Mississauga. You yes, but most No. Good luck, take your chance, put your money where your mouth is, and walk the walk instead of just talk the talk. Reminds me of the guy who killed the goose who laid the golden egg. Have everything and stil bitch bitch bitch.
Willy Report Comment
August 7th 2010, 3:46pm
All I know for all the hype that Mississauga gets as a well run City, you just have to look at the community of Malton as it has been neglected by her highness for the past twenty years. Murders, drive bys, drugs, etc.,at a rate that will rival the Malvern area and Jane/Finch.
Lived there for fifteen years till the late eighties. I wouldn't even send my worst enemy in there and Hazel or PEEL Region have not done anything to try to eradicate the crime. Sad
MISSISSAUGAWATCH Report Comment
August 7th 2010, 3:45pm
Readers who might actually want to learn from a Toronto Sun columnist who's been actually following the Judicial Inquiry, please see:
Michele Mandel July 27, 2010 8:44pm "McCallion's son testifies at inquiry" at:
www.torontosun.com/news/columnists/michele_mandel/2010/07/27/14846711.html
and:
Michele Mandel July 28, 2010 7:05pm "Hazel McCallion's son keeps it under his hat" at:
www.torontosun.com/news/columnists/michele_mandel/2010/07/28/14858221.html
(You know, just to confirm what Ted Woloshyn is purposely hiding from you.)
George from Brampton Report Comment
August 7th 2010, 3:41pm
THANK YOU MISSISSAUGA WATCH - YOU ANSWERED MY QUESTION WHEN YOU STATED
"To be clear I have a real hard hit on for MYTHissauga --that fraudulent municipal government free to trumpet, "Trust Quality Excellence" with its smiling public face, when the behind-the-scenes reality confirms fraud and duplicity." You should be so damn lucky as to have Hazel as mayor, you could have Miller and never dig out of the hole. Lets face it - You hate Hazel with a passion and thats fine, she will win again. It appears to me OTHERS HAVE RUN AGAINST HAZEL but Parrish does not have the guts and will wait until Hazel moves on and then we will hear all about what will be done, should be done, should of been done. Hopefully her riding will elect someone else.
Mississauga Watch Report Comment
August 7th 2010, 3:13pm
@ Everyone
ConcernedResident/Ted Woloshyn --same same.
In Mr. Woloshyn's case he emcee'd the December 2, 2010 "Friends of Hazel" Rally. Like other "Friends of Hazel", Woloshyn did his all to STOP the Judicial Inquiry.
ConcernedResident, believe it or not, actively prevented people from getting at the truth. For example, when I shared links to actual court transcripts, ConcernedResident (and friends) deleted them. Deleted LINKS to the Inquiry website!
Don't listen to me. Don't listen to Woloshyn or ConcernedResident. THINK for yourselves!
Again. Here are all the Judicial Inquiry court transcripts. http://tinyurl.com/36zk4u7
And the ROGERS telecasts. http://tinyurl.com/33s5c32
Notice Woloshyn doesn't share true (primary) information.
Mississauga Watch Report Comment
August 7th 2010, 2:55pm
To George from Brampton,
Regarding Carolyn Parrish you wrote, "I do note, she does not have the guts to run against Hazel one on one, knowing full well she will get her ass kicked."
Why single out Parrish. There isn't a politician ANYWHERE who'd go up against Hazel McCallion for the very reason you mention, they'd get their asses kicked.
Indeed, it's been called political suicide.
That's why municipal elections in MYTHissauga remind me of an old joke reaching back to the 60's. Khrushchev was criticized that there's no democracy in the Soviet Union. He responded that indeed there IS democracy. The Soviet people were free to vote for whatever communist they want.
Surely you're not taking the Mississauga mayoralty PRETEND seriously!
Mississauga Watch Report Comment
August 7th 2010, 2:50pm
To George from Brampton
You wrote, "It appears that Mississauga Watch has a real hard hit on for Hazel. You are upset at Woloshyn and really have not one good word to say on his article."
To be clear I have a real hard hit on for MYTHissauga --that fraudulent municipal government free to trumpet, "Trust Quality Excellence" with its smiling public face, when the behind-the-scenes reality confirms fraud and duplicity.
Bragging about Staff when the reality is there isn't a corporate policy that staff haven't violated. Watch here as the City dupes some sub-contractors out of tens of thousands of dollars. www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPp2T669aQA
As for me not having a good word on this article. That's because Sun readers deserve better.
Concerned Resident Report Comment
August 7th 2010, 2:23pm
What our friend Mississauga Watch (aka Mississauga Muse) fails to mention is that it is a candidate for Hazel's job. Much of it's vitriol for the Mayor is a result of this. However, it will defend itself by saying that they only registered for the election to do "research". If that is truly the case, I challenge the Muse to resign from the race prior to the nominations closing in September. The Muse is a frequent polluter of the comment section of the Mississauga News online edition, often posting comments that have nothing to do with an article, in a lame attempt to air its curious condemnation of all things Mississauga
George from Brampton Report Comment
August 7th 2010, 1:35pm
It appears that Mississauga Watch has a real hard hit on for Hazel. You are upset at Woloshyn and really have not one good word to say on his article. One takes from your posts that you seem to feel Ms. Parrish is the cats meow and would be a wondeful mayor for Mississauga. Lets hope that the people of her ward have more brains this time around and show her the pink slip. She will destroy Mississauga if ever elected mayor. I do note, she does not have the guts to run against Hazel one on one, knowing full well she will get her ass kicked. We saw her performance in the Lib. govt in Ottawa and she was a disgrace to Canada. Ont final comment Hazel is a conservative not a liberal JP.
Ghoulash Goner Report Comment
August 7th 2010, 12:34pm
Ta! Miss' Watch. . .
Nando it is. He's got my Vote!
Mississauga Watch Report Comment
August 7th 2010, 12:28pm
To Ghoulash Goner"
You wrote, "I live 'tween Hurontario/Dundas and Hurontario/Quuensway. Would like to know who my Councillor is and whether He/She/It Voted For/Against the Inquiry. Would like to Pat them on the Back or Kick them in the Pants (a.k.a. Vote against Them, this time around),depending."
Provided that you live west of Cawthra, your Councillor is none other than Nando Iannicca. Not only did he vote FOR the Judicial Inquiry last Wednesday he defended the cost!
Here's your Councillor as he spoke last Wednesday! www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbaYLBGBPBk
If you live east of Cawthra, your Councillor is Carmen Corbasson. Also voted FOR the Inquiry.
Here's her reasons why she supported the Inquiry.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNUBWuHhmbA
Ghoulash Goner Report Comment
August 7th 2010, 12:05pm
Dear Miss' Watch. . . Hope you read this and respond. . .
I live 'tween Hurontario/Dundas and Hurontario/Quuensway. Would like tio know who my Councillor is and whether He/She/It Voted For/Against the Inquiry. Would like to Pat them on the Back or Kick them in the Pants (a.k.a. Vote against Them, this time around),depending.
I enjoy the ODD, er Occassional, Ghoulash &/or Perrogie &/or Zweig, but DON"T LIKE Ghouls who Try to Put a Spin on and Cover Up something as Scandalous, as this.
Do respond on the Councillor part. . .
Mississauga Watch Report Comment
August 7th 2010, 11:38am
Quote:
"An independent company was engaged to sift through city documents and transfer them to electronic files for the sake of expedience.
Parrish now plans to re-visit that decision. But why now?"
These two sentences/paragraphs have nothing to do with each other.
What Parrish plans to revisit (as do other councillors) is whether Peter McCallion failed to report his 12% share in World Class Developments and his portion of the settlement when he first cried poor and asked for funding.
For details, check out Mississauga News "City to sue mayor’s son?" http://tinyurl.com/2753ete
Or REALLY inform yourself and read the court transcripts at: www.mississaugainquiry.ca/transcripts/index.html
The Ram Report Comment
August 7th 2010, 11:12am
If the Findings Reveal the Culprits, for who they are. . . . that will take the Sting Out. It'll be an Investment.
From what's been Revealed so far, the McCallion Clan isn't All Peaches and Cream and has, Allegedly, being Playing Fast and Loose with Public Money.
I guess for some, it's OK for a Mayor to, so Blatantly and Aggressively, ABUSE her Office and (MORE IMPORTANTLY), the TRUST that MISSISSAUGANs placed in her, for years.
Some of us, DO NOT want . . A Chain put around our Necks and Led around like Someone's WOOLY TEDDY BEAR. . .
I guess, the SOCIALIST BLOC did Deaden the Competitive Spirit that the Rest of the World Grew Up with, and "Many" are content to just FOLLOW-the-LEADER, in the POLITBURO, making do with CRUMBs.
Mississauga Watch Report Comment
August 7th 2010, 11:06am
For those who want to know what Ted Woloshyn is trying to hide from you, the Mississauga News has developed a comprehensive resources of articles.
Called, "Judicial inquiry coverage" please see:
www.mississauga.com/news/article/856638--judicial-inquiry-coverage
and the wealth of articles through Google News searching "hazel mccallion inquiry" at:
http://tinyurl.com/3aknuf5
Last, I encourage you to watch Councillor Nando Iannicca talk about the cost of the Inquiry.
YouTube, "Mississauga Council debates lawyers' fees for Mayor Hazel McCallion (Judicial Inquiry)" at:
http://tinyurl.com/3yy9pt6
Mississauga Watch Report Comment
August 7th 2010, 11:01am
Court transcript July 27, 2010. ("A" is Peter McCallion)
"Q: Okay, let's go back to Exhibit 196 then. (BRIEF PAUSE) Q: So this is a promissory note in the amount of fifty thousand dollars ($50,000), due November 1st, 2007. If we could scroll down to the signature on this, we see, sir, there are two (2) signatures. We see that, first of all, on behalf of World Class Developments Limited, we have a signature. Whose signature is that? A: That's mine. Q: Per Peter McCallion, ASO. Is that correct, sir? A: Correct. Q: Now, you apparently signed this on July 27th, 2007? A: Yes. Q: At the time, did you understand what ASO meant? A: Yes. Q: What did you understand it to mean? A: As signing officer."
Fraud.
Mississauga Watch Report Comment
August 7th 2010, 10:48am
What the Judicial Inquiry revealed (and Ted Woloshyn wanted HIDDEN)
The appalling number of "I can't remember, I don't recalls" by former city manager David O'Brien.
http://tinyurl.com/26kq9sn
That Dave O'Brien is the trustee of the McCallion family trust! That was a huge revelation given that during the public Enersource meeting I went to the podium and asked the Mayor why O'Brien wasn't here.
She said, he "didn't ask, nor was he invited."
Imagine O'Brien's "I don't remember I can't recall" performance in front of the Mississauga public? She spared him.
She writes a letter asking him to explain the veto clause. It takes him one year to respond. Yet being "close" to him, she' d have had TONS of opportunity to turn the screws to him.
Mississauga Watch Report Comment
August 7th 2010, 10:40am
Ted Woloshyn sick sick sick!
He writes, "At a cost of some $6 or $7 million, if at the end of this repugnant voyage nothing concrete is resolved the city of Mississauga’s reputation will have been tarnished by those seeking political gain."
Tarnished by WHO?! Hazel McCallion, Peter McCallion and the Friends/Fiends of Hazel.
Suggest you read Michele Mandel's "Hazel McCallion's son keeps it under his hat" at: http://tinyurl.com/2f6uuup
Like all the other "Friends of Hazel", Ted Woloshyn wants to hide all the corruption of MYTHissauga.
Check out the Globe and Mail article, "Peter McCallion’s other troubles. Hazel's son faces a lawsuit involving the Stavro family, a free Cadillac and nude photos" at:
http://tinyurl.com/2vu9qpf
cheryl Report Comment
August 7th 2010, 4:48am
Parrish is a mono-rail minded idiot. She wants to get Hazel at any cost. How do you like it so far? This woman has a screw loose, as exhibited by her tirade destroying a restaurant poster awhile back. Why do councilors even pay attention to her. She is nothing more than a ranting poison pen.
The Studder Report Comment
August 6th 2010, 11:59pm
Part 2, If the Mayor had practiced what see preached; honesty, integrity, transparency, the City wouldn't have to spend the $5Million on an inquiry. I guess you have tried to defend the Mayor but you realized that it is an impossible task so you have moved on to the 'cost is too high'. The cost of truth and democracy is priceless. The Councillors that voted for this inquiry should be congratulated for their stance. They could have swept this under the rug but they did not. The taxpayers of the City of Mississauga have every right to be angry at the cost of this inquiry. That anger should be directed at the Mayor not the supporters of this inquiry. Wonder why an innocent person needs two lawyers to represent them at the hearings? Just asking
The Studder Report Comment
August 6th 2010, 11:44pm
Does a drunk blame the liquor companies for being a drunk? Do we blame the cops for the money we spend on fighting crime? Cheez Ted I thought I told you to put the drink down and follow the inquiry. The reason this inquiry cost so much is because of all the crap that has been dug up. This is not about tarnishing a reputation; the Mayor has done a good job on doing that herself. I agree Ted, myself and my friends are outraged at the cost of the inquiry. We are outraged at the Mayor for leaving the Councillors no choice but to call this inquiry. I don't blame the police for the cost of policing, I blame the criminals.
Darren Report Comment
August 6th 2010, 10:21pm
The article has been posted for almost 4 hours and so far only 1 comment (2 including mine) has been posted. Had this been about TO all the hatersand posers would be commenting here and tearing down the city they only wished they could live in
Bruce P. Report Comment
August 6th 2010, 7:14pm
As Canadians we seem to have no end of love for public inquiry. I fail to see why. Either the out come is obvious from the start, (who didn't know that Ben Johnston used steroids, the IOC told us so for free) or the inquiry gets so out of hand, and becomes so far reaching that no good is achieved beyond enriching the legal staff involved. Why would we not just hire a detective, and have him investigate the alleged crime instead . If any laws have been broken, hand it off to the crown for charges to be laid. AND anytime Ms. Parish ( ..I hate those Americans..) speaks in public could we not just change the channel and pretend she doesn't exist in public life?? Bruce P. CTAT
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